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The SFFaudio Podcast #831 – AUDIOBOOK/READALONG: The Aeneid by Virgil (Books V to VIII)

The SFFaudio Podcast #831 – The Aeneid by Virgil [Books V – VIII] read by George Allen (for LibriVox) and translated by John Dryden. This is the first third of the epic poem, books V to VIII (comprised of XII Books) running 4 hours 18 minutes, followed by a discussion of them. Participants in the discussion include Jesse and Scott Danielson

Talked about on today’s show:
books 5-8, three, the entire Aeneid, zip up all the things into one show, one long show?, the first half and the second half, how did we devide these?, at the end of book six the whole things changes, The Odyssey, having trouble getting into this, washing over, what happened?, find things, Great Courses series, Elizabeth Vandiver, 1-6 seems to be the interesting bit, 7-12 was the interesting bit, gung-ho Rome, an Avengers movie, power armour, couple of decades ago, the very ending, finding out about that, verym memorable, a good chunk, one of the books of this book, the shield of Aeneas, exemplifies what’s weird about this book, The Iliad is weird compared with The Odyssey, operating on its own, a cast of characters, a bunch of heroes, Achilles, Patrochlus, the other team, the gods, trying to get the stories about being men, the older dudes are there, know who they are, the story of individual heroes from individual towns, two Ajaxes, an everyman’s story, an individual’s story, every dude has a superpower, a massive seperation, Aeneas is not much of a man as a human being, he is piety personified, dutiful to the gods and destiny, a product of a bunch of things, checkboxes, running a race, certain checkpoints, these all things happened in Roman history, telling a story people already know, all the future visions that we see are contemporary, a propaganda piece, more like a bible, moral stories, how Greeks behave, Romans are already behaving, we are seeing some contemporary for Augustus, some ancient stuff, also shorter, both are in one, if we go into any individual passage and break it down a bit, the Dryden translation, the Fagles translation, end of book 8, page breaks from the bottom, a greenwood shade for long religion known, about a grove, a forest, such vistas, stands by the streams that wash the Tuscan town a holy horror to the grove, a holy forest, beautiful poetic, almost Lovecraftian, the first inhabitants, to Sylvanus vowed, the guardian of the flocks and fields, annual day, the particular setting, the Romans have a set of gods like the Greeks, a million percent legit, they are pantheists, everything is full of gods, the god of the sewers, if you work for the city as a sewer man, your duty is holy, a car or a badge, a holy priest of this goddess, that is not capitalism, everything is infused with religion, keep things great, intense secure, the allies that they’re getting ready for the coming war with the Latians, now from a rising ground, his wondering eyes around, from left to right, thither, weary horses fed, now it gets fun, where the shield description starts, the fated arms, within a winding vale she finds her son, presented with weapons by his mom, but the goddess Venus, off in a glade’s recess by a frigid stream, fighting swaggering Latin ranks, savage Turnus to a duel, a little more touching, she shews her heavenly form without disguise, desiring eyes, same information, in the form of someone else, in The Odyssey, as Mentor, Telemachus, who could it have been but the goddess Athena, this is literally her son, the god who made the armor is not his father (but her husband), he wants to see his mom, behold she says, having her first son embrace, his greedy sight, being made personal, he can’t hug her, she embraces him, radiant arms, she sets the weapons and armour, with that Venus reached to embrace her son, exactly the same information, his greedy sight, like Christmas, takes delight in the goddess’ gifts, what we really have to do is slow it down and think about what’s exactly happening, the crested helm that vomits radiant fires, the terrible crested helmet, solid bronze, like a dark blue cloud, given the perfect gift, good quality, his hands the fatal sword and corslet hold, manly thigh, mysterious mould, roman triumphs, burnished grieves of electrum, no words can tell its power…, the incredible description on what’s going on on the shield, the wars, Julian line, there is the story of Italy, seers and schooled in times to come, all the wars they waged, stock, Julius Caesar and his progeny, right up to the contemporary, this is poetry and not story, poetic devices built into the imagery, how exciting this would be to the Romans, walking around looking at sights familiar to them, an ancient world that’s already ancient, not a new land, an old land full of people already, should be a new land, prime of the world, the caves of Mars, the marshal twins, Romulus and Remus, the green grotto, dugs, lithe neck, licked her wolf pack into shape, intrepid of the swelling, licked at their tender limbs, she’s shaping them into men, pretty great, happening upstairs right now, they look like dogs, they might shape up, the foster dam, sucked secure, new Rome appears, the rape of the Sabine dames, accelerated quickly, a war succeeds, unexampled deeds, pray defend, this is the description of the land on the shield, an image being described, not far from there, he forged this shield, very good, the way to appreciate it, what happens in book, the part where Venus gives him the armour, Book 5 is all about Olympian style games, a funeral, funeral games, get gladiators, a ritual, go yell, form those pups, we see that hear in a moment, sorry, through this whole shield, brutally dragged, circus games were played, an anticipation of what’s about to happen, a projection into the future of this book, a war succeeds, breach of public faith, arms they pray defend, the Romans don’t exist yet, plight the peace, each other’s charger, they’re friends, early in this book, a fatted sow, imprecations on the purgered head, firey steeds, vulture’s fud, battling old king, same chiefs, stood in full armour, lifting cups, a charger here is not a horse, a cup, two four horse chariots, man of Alba you shouldn’t have kept your words, from brakes of thorns, punishment, viscera here and there, ready for that good Roman soil, restore the banished kings, the Roman you asserts their native rights, mounted a massive siege to choke the city, in freedom’s name, Roman history, to win by famine or fraud surprising, the flud, his likeness meancing, burst her chains, scap’d from their chain, for their guide, heroic Manleus, gud, held the capital’s heights, then Rome was poor, straw, gold, on the left before, on the right after, the silver goose before the shining gate, by her cackles saved the state, Paul Revere, not a major character in the American revolution, the new thatch bristled thick, the gold arcade, Gauls attack the gates, Gauls! Gauls!, ascend and seize the walls, Romans pretended like they never started wars, modern empires use today, Gulf of Tonkin, the Maine, we were attacked!, you can probably inflate any sort of incident you want, the gold dissembled well their golden hair, long alpine spears, striped shirts, long shields, a lot of gold, that’s also on the shield itself, gilding, a bas relief on this shield, little cartoons, the gold lied, hardby, nearby, naked throw their shields, targets dropped from heaven, dancing priests of Mars, here modest matrons in their soft litters, odorous gums, and chaste matrons riding in pillowed, far hence removed, the Stygian seats are seen, the furies hissing from the nether ground, the torments of the doomed, cringing before the furies, you?, the narrator stepping in, and Cato’s holy ghost is dispensing laws, a contemporary of Augustus, a reflection back of going to Hell, set apart the virtuous souls, finish this giant shield, new stanza, the dancing dolphins, cut the precious tide, the heaving sea, the blue deep foamed, swam the dolphins, cut the waves in two, amid the main, water, ocean, sea, their brazen beaks, watery plain, Battle of Actium, seething, molten gold, I, Claudius, the Battle of Kursk, D-Day, the Battle of Stalingrad, a definitive battle, whathisname and the lady, in pride of place, the propaganda end of this particular poem, young Caesar, his beamy temples, the Julian star, the senate and people too, high astern he stands, lustrous brows, Agrippa seconds him, his manly brows, forshows, performed in part for Augustus, have Virgil in, Virgil performs this part, we’re not forgetting about you Agrippa, how to win this battle, impelled by favouring winds, proud ensign, Agrippa marries a Julian, barbarian aides, the Bactrians from a far, the Egyptian wife, troops of every stripe, in his retinue, the end of the Earth, Cleopatra, camels, Arabians near, of tounges discordant, his ill-fate follows him, forky prows, the water glows, all launch in as one, cleaving triple beaks, a description of the battle, it seems as if the Cyclades again, afloat on the swells, showering flaming toe, fireballs are thrown, the fields of Neptune take a purple dye, her cruel fate, the snakes behind, clacking her native rattles, her destiny coming, the dog Anubis barks but barks in vein, the clash of the two cultures, the Romans were contemptuous of the Egyptians, so much food, massive pyramids and ancient culture, how they treated Caesarean, monster gods, great Minerva, Athena, Discord, Bellona is the wife of Mars, there in the heart of battle, with grim furies, Strife and Triumph rushing in, bloody lash in hot pursuit, the land of Dis, pours down his arrows, quit the watery fields, and scanning the melee, Apollo bent his bow, see her calling, tinting the winds, let her sheets run free, invokes the gales, heaves her breast for breath, sails, panting and pale with future of death, driven along by winds and waves and scudding through the throng, SCUD missiles from the first Gulf War, just opposite sad, hides the flying host, the Nile immersed in morning, all his rippling robes, all his conquered people, Nilus is the river god of the Nile, the sow with 30 white piglets, everything is alive, I’m gonna kill you, the god throws down fear, the retreat, his thanks expressed, 300 temples in the town he placed, in triple triumph, eternal vows, August is great because he’s dutiful to the gods, diverting us, three shining nights, the streets with praise, the theaters with plays, drenched in his gore, upon his throne, hangs the monumental crowns on high, the roads resounded, strewn with slaughtered steers, mounts them high on the lofty temple doors, the vanquished, and in tongue, the ungirt Numedian race, they got no pants, the tamed Euphrates, the Rhine, the Danes unconquered, a map, as motley, the nomad race, archers bearing quivers, bridling at his bridge, divinely wrought, unknown the names, he admires the race, a detail, out of the sky, oh, mom they’re the best, I don’t know who these guys are, more into it, we’re so distanced from it, the poetry, the rhyme, when the rhyme don’t work, blood and good, forced rhymes make you engage with the material more, point to two, the visit to the underworld, the games, part of their tradition, when the Romans want to turn the people to their side, hold a games, it has to be tied to something, an anniversary, a Roman religious festival, funerals and funeral memorials, we’re having a games, you pay for the games, before they were Romans, wrong by the Greeks with no honour, everything is calm now, the civil wars are over, I’m just like Aeneas, people who lose, over in Sicily, one guy slips in blood, everybody gets prizes, nobody on team Trojan, he brings everybody along, political propaganda, I can help every American, no child left behind, such a good boy, respectful of his troops and the gods, our Republic was at war, the most striking thing in the underworld, how Christian it was, not Heaven, nicer parts of the underworld, a little bit of an explanation, resembles the Catholic viewpoint of Purgatory, getting out of Purgatory, punishment for people who are bad, you did bad stuff in life, this is different from the Greek underworld, you don’t really want to be there, everybody goes there, from Book 6, line 850, taints, plagues, so long energized in the flesh, drilled in punishments, later Dante-esque, they must pay, Elysium’s broad expanse, headed to Heaven, striking, doesn’t fit, August isn’t Christian, compatible, Milton and the great Larry Niven, conversation with Julie, A Houseboat On The Styx by John Kendrick Bangs, enlightened pagans, prepping the way for Jesus, up or out vs. down or under, burying people, doing right by people’s bodies, isn’t buried, in real life, outsourcing these things, you don’t wash your own father’s body, you hire a service for that, disconnecting from the reality, dig up the corpse, this was my grandfather, say that to your son, uh huh, a part of him, Romans are deeply connected to the people they kill, duty for your country, my gods tell me we are destined for this land, remembering the end, the anticipation for that end, a genocide, they’re going to kill all these people, future allies, fate is such that, I made the land peacable, we were a house divided, Abraham Lincoln, started a war, unofficially punished, who’s monument is the biggest, the Lincoln memorial, not a figure of Washington, imposing, a giant statue of Lincoln sitting in a chair, a throne, U.S. Capitol, strip of land, quite symbolic, really something, become politicians, done the tour, has no impact, this stuff can wash over you, that lady was the mom of that dude, about this whole thing, multiple purposes, checkpoints it has to go through, this is not a fiction story, alternate history, filling in the gaps, Rommel is one of the characters, you can’t kill Patton, city state propaganda, a lot more like this whole book, more distancing, an individual on his way home, struggling with another people, an amalgam of those two, a duty to perform in the present, as Beowulf does, a Dane or a Jute, connected with that, a Celt and an Irish and a viking and a Swedish, viking is a verb, relationship with the gods, with Dido, got to run because of fate, sees her in the underworld, she’s with her husband, I’m sorry, not having the dead speak, he talks to his dad, pretty amazing, a paper copy, near the beginning, a huge throng of the dead, the Golden Bough, a huge hit in the early 20th century, assume it is connected to this, The Twelve Dancing Princesses by Bros. Grimm, wearing out their shoes, I will allow any man who can solve this mystery to marry one of my daughters, the punishment is death, fuck around find out if you don’t find out, a young soldier and a witch gives him advice, the witch says to him, don’t drink what they offer you, they will drug whoever is locked up with them, underneath their beds is a secret doorway into an underworld, a cloak of invisibility, steps on one the girl’s heel’s once, three trees, silver, gold and diamond, breaks off a branch from each, twelve boats in the lake, scooches down, that’s weird, twelve princess, they dance all night, ascending the stairs, that’s weird happens a third time, that smells like bullshit, three branches, Eric pointed out some interesting things, the dream world, an inversion, like Bilbo Baggins, sneaks in finds out, profits from it, behind it all, no sex before marriage, related to this story somehow, the visit to the underworld, filled the time, wandering them among them, Phoenician Dido, endless woods, through the shadows, see or seem to see, wept and approached the ghost with tender words with love, the final measure with the sword, the powers on high, the depths of earth, the will of the gods, these mouldering places so forlorn, stay a moment, running away from whom, the last word, with welling tears tried to soothe her rage, her features no more moved, set in stony flint, in a new light, I did this because its the gods’ will, I didn’t want to do it, the wills were aligned, so I’m out, he didn’t know what she was going to do, turning it into a Catholic podcast again, it’s getting close, now see through a glass darkly, what gods’ plan is, but you have to get your toenails clipped, defer, the gods are capricious, the development from Greek gods, Clash Of The Titans (1981), Venus loves Aeneas, the apple of Discord, beauty contest, very well said, Upon The Dull Earth by Philip K. Dick, Rick, practicing witchcraft, Dick conflates it with angels, she gets to close to these fairies/angels/ghosts, ritual of bloodletting, after she’s dead, recreates a scene from The Odyssey, talk to Sylvia again, talk to the dead, dead people in dream, turns the world into a nightmare, taking the form of someone else, leaps from that body to another, tries to escape, every passing car, rigid, waiting numbly, the cop has become her, sure he answered dully, familiar fingers, red nails, the hand he knew so well, sure, hurtled ahead, she hurried everywhere, she was omnipresent, please tell me, Rick, I’m back, it was a mistake, that’s all in the past, a wretched unhappy heap, huge cleated boots, sparkled white in the sun, a difficult place to find, filled up the bowl, briefly he glanced up, a face tear stained and frantic, waver and slide, trembling red mouth, the girl at the bowl bent to dry herself, threw herself on the chair, Rick she murmured, she shook her head bewildered, superpowerful, lost love, a girlfriend that haunts you, when we want to connect with ghosts they go everywhere with us, we see them everywhere, we as modern 21st century weirdos don’t connect with, what makes these powerful stories so powerful, in essence very very real, with the last three books, wade through the washes of words we flow over us, a white animal?, the sacrificial animal being white, a pigeon, white horses, in order to win this race, a companion piece to The Lord Of The Rings, the adventures of Fredigar Bulger, the hobbit that doesn’t leave, a smaller scale story, an Atlas of Middle Earth, when we fit all that chronology in, all this backstory that you have to fit in, the original folktale versions of The Iliad and The Odyssey, those are the definitive sources for those events, stories shaped, not an individual guy, it wasn’t a dude, a bunch of people telling a story, get really good at singing songs, Barbara Allen, similar to Robin Hood, useful for telling stories, not based on a true phenomenon, based on wishes, people who get slighted at parties, roses grow in graveyards, there was this great battle long ago, you have a famous hero, a particular dude, these two stories intertwine, reading Detective Comics, Legion Of Superheroes, The Brave And The Bold, the history of the Roman empire, ruling actual Gotham City, the funeral games in Book 5, games in The Odyssey, Odysseus participates in games, the axes, washes up on the beach, a princess, who is this stranger, his great prowess at all these sports, keeping the community together, sex with lots of goddesses, get this empire governed, definitely weird, Bewoulf has a dragon, in an epilogue almost, fairy tales and folk tales, commercial success, we’re having fun with this, what we did her, scheduled that Block, What Mad Universe, meta-science fiction, if there’s thirty white puppies…

Posted by Jesse Willis

The SFFaudio Podcast #826 – AUDIOBOOK/READALONG: The Aeneid by Virgil (Books I to IV)

The SFFaudio Podcast #826 – The Aeneid by Virgil [Books I – IV] read by George Allen (for LibriVox) and translated by John Dryden. This is the first third of the epic poem, books I to IV (comprised of XII Books) running 3 hours 52 minutes, followed by a discussion of them. Participants in the discussion include Jesse, Scott Danielson and Alex (Pulpcovers)

Talked about on today’s show:
books 1 to 4, a humanities course, misspoke, The Iliad, a hard downshift to reading the Aeneid vs. living on twitter, opposite end of the spectrum, young people don’t watch a lot of movies anymore, even TV shows are generally for old people, The Only Murders In The Building, boomers or slightly younger, bet money, this didn’t actually happen, invited Virgil over for dinner, it’s 9 hours, bro, people would and could do it, you’re in a different headspace, a different mode, the material is familiar, reading this on paper, easy reading on paper, following along in print, Robert Fagels, John Dryden, the footnotes, sometimes the footnotes contradict Jesse, who is Aeneas’ mom, the goddess Venus, she’s a huntress, dressing up like Diana, sometimes they’re not behaving in the way that is most stereotypical, reflecting, the opening, the retelling, mapping The Odyssey, book 3 especially, one to oney, Homer, Virgil was a real dude, 100% known, a merging of some things, existing myths about Aeneas, crafted an overarching story, popular myths, strikingly different, a work of art by a particular individual, all about prophecy, just Roman history, subsumed by the Roman Empire, a national epic done folk hero style, Robin Hood, national epic propaganda style, saying Shakespeare wrote to get approval of the queen, this doesn’t feel as mythological, reliance on gods for everyday events, Augustus, from town to town, died before he finished it, not in 20 years, a really cool noir ending, its finished, wanted to have it burned, not good enough, his heirs, his literary estate, copyright didn’t exist back then, George R.R. Martin, more drafts, how you write an epic poem, the pentameter wasn’t quite right, a meter problem, forced rhymes, pretending you can rhyme things, funnier, poems should be hilarious, helps tell the story, Beowulf, the translation, failed Latin, Latin 101, greater shames in life, written in Greek or Latin, this translation tries to feel epic poetry, modern post-critical translation, words that will shock you, twist the meaning, the feel, someone just telling a story, structured that way on the page, accept it without a rhyme, prose translation, a phone call, edited an annotated and compiled, Arms and the man I sing, haughty Juno, long labours both by sea and land he bore, Latian realm, built his destined town, long glories of majestic Rome, so brave, so just a man, first part of book 1, very different, an exile driven on by fate, destined to reach Lavinia soil, cruel Juno’s relentless rage, before he could found a city, the same idea, same material, not as pretty, not as poetic, easier to understand, sounds better when you read it, a very busy week, hard to pick up what’s happening, sometimes the backwards is grammar, to make it it, Maissa was going to be here, compared to The Odyssey, a very boy book, not a girl book, marriage, Juno being mad, childbirth and marriage, picks up his father, takes his son by his hand, leaves his wife behind, new wives, a nice lady there, wants to have him in bed, a serious succession of goddesses, widow, ok, destiny, I am very Roman virtue, honoring thy father, Imma kill myself, I curse you, the feel, we notice and know, comes back all by himself, loses some ships, war with the Latins, he’s still got his people, not an individual’s return home, Philip K. Dick, a man experiencing the world, Beyond Lies The Wub, a similarity but a difference, he’s trying to go home, home has been destroyed, found a new place, you need more than one guy, the Greeks are not an empire, a league, teams, allies, games together, each guy is his own king, no matter what town, Ajax the lesser, Ajax the greater, propagandistic, a national epic for an empire, a leader of men who doesn’t kill his men, sex quest across the Mediterranean, supernatural stuff, monster or goddess, variation on the magic, guest host relationship, you invited me into your home, you came into my home without knocking, each island is about the guest host relationship, a bible for how to deal with no empire, they invite you in and turn you into a pig, Dido’s peninsula, Libya, respect and food to the other lost ships, I’ll sleep with you, that’s cool, called by fate, reminded by the gods, we disagree, Juno’s the one manipulating things, do we call that fate if a god is doing it, when Zeus or Jupiter says something’s happening, that’s fate, classical pantheons, the king of the gods has real authority, a lot of talk about how the greeks are very masculinity, same thing is true of the Romans, more obviously intensive, the rape of the Sabines, whole buncha women, a sacking, taken the remnants of an army, one guy eventually showing up on his own island, teams up with his son and kills em, righteous executes justice, boy what a troubled sailor, Aeneas is not fun, moved by the fate, a mirror to Augustus, blows some waves, Poseidon is happy with Aeneas, everything is reversed, all subsumed to the outcome, written backwards, a deliberate myth about his own people, an inversion, every part of it is backwards, an inevitable monopoly piece, watching a chess game from the 1960s, no concept of spoiling things, you know where it is going on purpose, the whole fun of it, almost too perfect, Dido is not a goddess, nymphs, more deliberate, more false, she’s also the queen of Carthage, beaten in recent history, she’s on her pyre, now we’re going to forever be at war for what you did to me, why didn’t he just stat with her, almost like a prequel, to get to Episode 4, doesn’t feel as awesomely spontaneous, not internal, everything he ran into, a goal he was going for, he’s dutiful, less of a character, found the new city and get better lives, you’re all going to live and conquer Italy, not acting like a king, a piece on a chessboard being moved around, his destiny was to found Rome, that is what a king is supposed to act like according to this piece of propaganda, those guys are lost at sea, that guy got eaten by a cyclops, that’s not the job of a kind, that is why we have an empire, good at art and tutoring but they don’t have the discipline that a king is supposed to have, that culminating scene at the end, he’s basically won the war, he’s essentially founded Rome, he could end this and make friends and have it be over, brothers in this new land, my friend, echoes back to the Iliad, of course we have to genocide you, extremely new to having a king again, imperator, supreme executive authority, an agent of the senate, working for the senate, that lie went away over the centuries, this is an emergency, for the rest of his life, is Augustus the first time an emperor comes into existence?, the same trick Napoleon uses, does that trick work again?, the British are very willing to marry into the Bonaparte royal line, the emperor of japan still exists, but the empire is just Japan and Okinawa, before the Shogun, prime minister, but the king has no power, I’m the emperor’s chief warlord, nobody tries to mess with the throne, a separate kind of thing, the managers of empire, they have staff, the buck stops with them, pontifex maximus, the highest religious figure, sometimes you become a literal god as well, the head of the army, extreme power, this book feels different in part because its an inversion, it is not about art and a man wandering the earth and figuring out how to relate to things, a man needs to be with his wife and his son, the journey of a state, curses the two culture to war, 27 BC, 2100 year old book?, they knew about all that Carthage stuff, figuring out what they’re culture is like based on this one thing, a very narrow window, the propaganda of empire, an emperor’s job, carrying the father, to lead the son, faithful to his friends, push on towards destiny, my pride is up, personal rivalry, the inevitable grind of what the plan is, trying to live your life trying to figure out what the gods want, make a sacrifice to Juno, the milk white cow, and a foal, motifs we don’t get, symbols, fire, snake, page 61, the hollow spaces lie, denoting deeth [death], the priestess enters with her hair unbound, a curse, threefold Hecate, hoary, with brazen sickles reaped a noon of night, baleful juices, robbing the mother’s love, two meanings, the mother of the foal, unable to suckle its child, she wanted to have his babies, you could get married again, this ritual is to kill her, a mother’s job is to have children and make new Roman soldiers, everything’s white, twas dead of night, gentle floods, peace with downy wings was brooding on the ground, making eggs, very skillfully done, a cow, pours red juice on its head, cow, cattle?, it exists, if I was a Roman, some of those symbols, circling back, feels like a witch, she’s a priestess, this text is the foundational text in education up into the 1900s, memorizing, those symbols, I bet a lot of it came straight outta this text, the root of a lot of the symbolism and language, this massive poem, 9000 couplets, breaking it up, so much going on, Donald Westlake book set in New York, what a cab is, how the economy works, the prices, racism, how much a sandwich costs, what the alley smelled like, how this was distributed, copied by slaves or copyists, possibly Greeks, making copies to be gifted, presents, enjoy them, everybody likes reading, the major media that’s available, they have theaters and stuff, the actors were slaves, low class, business magnate, a general, something important, who the audience for it is, they’re going to think it is cool, the amount of change you need to get in to get into it, questioning what does that mean exactly, more difficult than the odyssey, a manufactured bible, more book of Mormon, maybe they have an empire, surrounded, in Utah, there’s a Mormon in the house!, the description of the Trojan War, their minds were addled, intervention by gods that made them actually accept this thing, Virgil, why Odysseus is a hero to me is because he’s tricky, his virtue is not the virtue of being a good father or a dutiful leader, not the virtue of an emperor, pride, proud, strong, some invulnerability, sense of honor, honor comes from pride, how he can trick his way out of things, you promised to go off with a thousand ships, pretends to be insane, plowing the beach, puts [Telemachus] on the beach, Achilles, dressed him up as a handmaiden [Achilles on Skyros], thread, a rocket, a sword, these conversations, differences between men and women, the reason he is beloved of Minerva/Athena is he’s tricky, wisdom is being clever/tricky not making good decisions for your community, Aeneas is beloved by Jupiter, the fealty is to the father, a major difference, tusky boars and stags, my animal, the titles for these books, The Passion Of Dido, a biblical meaning, Safe Haven After Storm, The Final Hours Of Troy, Landfalls Ports Of Call, Arms And The Man, The Fall Of Troy, Aeneas’ Wanderings, wow, double meaning, an interesting choice, have something happen to you, Passion Of The Christ vs. a woman who is passionate, to be an actor is to act, to be a patient is to have things done to you, her sister is the human who tries to give her good advice, bad advice, murdered by his brother, his land and his wealth, his gold, the wife is collateral damage, she had promised not to remarry, in such a tough spot, she loved her dead husband, visiting his tomb, not in the know with regard to the chessboard plan, the visits to Sicily, abbreviated and less cool than anything we get in the Odyssey, just following the map, together in one book, who he was writing for, what would a stop in Sicily have meant, pooping on this book, two of the greatest things ever written, pretty good for a dude, given all the limitations, so much foreshadowing, follows the same structure and formula, you can bump into characters, a map of the journeys, time feels very compressed, founded Rome before Odysseus got home, 10 years at war, 10 years at sea, hanging out with Calypso, the storytelling, the first book of The Odyssey, sees some washer princesses, is it Menelaus, I’m not a classics scholar, I’m a pulp art fan, the man of many devices, the sacred citadel of Troy, many the woes he suffered, the return of his comrades, he desired it sore, so sad all my guys died, hey guys you all have to stuff your ears full of wax, but tie me up I gotta hear this shit, so appealing to a teenagers, fools, goddess daughter of Zeus, longing for return, yearning that he should be her husband, everybody wants to marry our boy, turn him into a tame animal, maybe an owl, whatever you are is what you’re turned into, stay in bed don’t go out, stay here, we’ll stay in, a third lady, all these sea-ladies want to keep him, return home to Ithaca, even among his own folk, save Poseidon, sundered in twain, where Hyperion sets and rises, Argives, his men screwed up, they killed the bulls of the sungod, that’s why they were all killed, Mercury shows up and says don’t go in there, take this herb with you, favoured by the gods, one way to read it, being gifted with good ideas, having an app on your phone that can tell you where to go, these Facebook gods are working against us, always meeting cross dressing gods, Mentor, more formal about it, piety was prized among the Romans, forces of nature, make this guy a king, personification of storms, keep your head down and survive, more legalistic, rational?, the city of Rome, household gods, a Roman concept, a guardian angel, you inherited them from your father, little statues of them, a different vibe, the gods have a plan and are working through it, I got reject by Paris and I’m mad about it, you killed my cows, he was brought home because they liked him for some reason, Aeneas is being dragged along his path of fate, a very pious guy, Aeneas before this was written he was a very pious guy, supremely violent, appealed to the Romans, a more Roman virtue, martial prowess, bows to the will of the gods, does what he’s supposed to, feels less mythic than Odysseus, really good, flashed, Hyrcania, Hyrkania, the horselords in Conan, Russia/Ukraine, these walls he entered, forced by my fate, from head to foot, looking at people’s bodies, no longer these outrageous threats, she dissin him, hardened entrails, rough Hyrcanian tigers, looked or lent, all symptoms of a base ungrateful mind, behold in vain, triumphant treason, faithless is earth, faceless are the skies, suicidal you might say, #betrayed, I know that place, you knew that one, a number of cities, Argos, in one of these old books, sometimes it is mapped in Robert E. Howard, The Lost Valley Of Iskander, kinda sorta, 20 cities named after Alexander, weird fantasy novel, the other Alex, weird fantasy author, [Thomas Burnett Swann’s The Weirwoods], shinto like spirits, occassional cyclops, there isn’t magic in every wave, Cloacina the goddess of the drains, the sewers in Rome, chief of the drame, The Not-World, every forest is full of spirits, nymphs, dryads, naidas, land of the lotus eaters, weird creatures, the world is unexplored, at least 500 years earlier, the Mycenaean collapse, a very post-modern, Virgil is very post-modern for a pre-modern, camera, well that just happened, make me die, really horrible, a mural of the Trojan war here, a grotto where there’s a lady who’s immortal, that’s not a thing in this book, its a human woman in a real place, that we really salted the earth for, pretty extraordinary book, the next two installments, split it into thirds, the Iliad part is the war part, more Odyssey part, the journey to the underworld, how Virgil ended up in Dante, referencing previous book, Larry Niven putting himself in hell, Inferno, the sequel, H.P. Lovecraft is always thinking my life as a Roman!, Philip K. Dick leans on the early end, a story set in ancient Greece, [The Tree by H.P. Lovecraft], I know, I know, the whole story is a kinda like Robert Graves gives us about Livia, Augustus’ wife, I, Claudius, poisoning everybody, two artists are commissioned to make a statue of a god, inspiration from nature vs. inspiration from partying in the city, such a good friend to his friend, you don’t need to build me a tomb, put an olive branch at the head of my grave, a mighty tree, collapses in a windstorm, the friend isn’t a friend he was jealous, he poisoned him, art inspired by nature, Lovecraft’s argument, making that argument here, The Odyssey is better because its inspired by some sort of natural thing vs. a propagandistic thing, three great attempts to do epic poetry, Gilgamesh is a thing, a tradition of epic poetry, Dante did it for the Italians, he put Virgil in it, not so much as a history, everyone else writing in Latin, Milton tried to do it in English, none of them, for science fiction fans, Eclogues aka The Bucolics, The Georgics, shorter poems, some sort of theories, one of them is a really interesting thing about bees, bees in here, an Italian miniseries adaptation of The Aeneid, a nest of bees, bees are a big thing in Roman culture, the Romans being bees, they have queens, they thought they had kings, the king bee, industrious, plays and drinking parties and doing philosophies, also farmers, bees produce honey, citizen farmers, we will kick your ass, a recipe for making bees, get a carcass of a bull and cover it so no air can get in, bees within it, wasps?, that doesn’t sound right, a metaphor, what that metaphor is, you can see the working hand of Virgil in the manipulation of the events, Dido and the war, so much content in the millions of similes, Dido’s sister her hair is blonde, are the Carthaginians aryans?, is that a metaphor, the marriage bed, something red poured on its head, virgins everywhere, endless virgins, something the Romans are thinking a lot about, prized virginity, Vestal virgins, what’s the word sacred mean, set aside for the gods, something unblemished, in Exodus, an unblemished lamb, what’s the best animal to sacrifice, nudity, half-cladness, bottomless, kinda fun, not a prudish book, the morality is very different, extremely different, they have the things they believe in, a lot of echoes to it, The Man Who Was Thursday, Father Brown Mysteries – The Sign Of The Broken Sword, guess who the spymaster is, higher up the chain, The Everlasting Man, the pinnacle of pagan civilization, only the Christianization of Roman, the best culture, supposed to rule the world, our empire will have no boundaries, let’s go Rome!, these guys were a little weird tho, invade and murder all these people, before tweets, it sounds like a forerunner to the Riverworld novels, John Kendrick Bangs, Bangsian Fantasy, everyone who has ever died is in Hades, a mysterious houseboat, comedic version of what happens, put Virgil in Hell, he doesn’t belong in the worse circle of hell because he’s a virtuous pagan, retrograde takes, this doesn’t seem right to me, reading Gilgamesh, that guy really loved his friend, science fiction about a future culture where their virtues are really different, prized different things, murdered that guy and raped his wife, Jack Vance, The Moon Moth, a culture where you aren’t allowed to watch people eat, so disgusting, Time Out Of Joint, you do things backwards, gonna have to go to school soon, people regurgitate food into the refrigerator, everything’s reversed, Catholic worries about birth control and abortion, insert me into some woman, attach an umbilical cord, you eat through your ass, learned a ton, meeting again on the first of September, on for The Green Queen and then Treasure Island, Hugh B. Cave, unmute your children.