Jesse and Evan Lampe talk about Starman Jones by Robert A. Heinlein
Talked about on today’s show:
1953, interested in the centaurs, get off my chest, read the juveniles in order, the first 6 are humanity’s juvenile guy in space, Rocket Ship Galileo, Space Cadet, The Rolling Stones goes the farthest, Podkayne Of Mars, Starship Troopers, the themes are more adult, all about the parents, family, 18-19, Between Planets, takes the ring, Time For The Stars, Have Space Suit, Will Travel, all set in the solar system, The Star Beast, the Moon, intergalactic space, the 7th one, interstellar space, invents FTL for this story, assumes it, different tech, Time For The Stars, only asterix, pooping on these boring boy characters, he’s a hillybilly with a stepmom, stepstepdad, Sam thief/mentor, truck driver mentor, some other mentors in the ship, super-noticed, found it here, they get lost in the woods, always getting lost, gets people out, the hero boy gets the lost people out the bad situation, what happens in space, becomes the captain, very boy-wish fulfillment, astrogators, had to be the captain, annapolis, the math guys are in charge, memorized the logarithm charts, I could be captain, junior officer, I have the training I have the knowledge, a really really good book, when were they and how could they get back, a time warp, whoever wrote the dustjacket, Tunnel In The Sky, pleistocene, the girl, tomahawk effect, back on the farm, a fun conformity, he achieves these great things, it’s situational, still just a student, have your own colony, didn’t he prove his way, a field commission, Wesley has to go back to school, the main split Jesse has with Heinlein, reject the things that are bullshit, good value in corruption, the Sam character, gets martyred, the earth culture we got a very small peak of, guild heavy, Lester Del Rey’s Badge Of Infamy, leave the earth and go to mars, he likes that idea, meritocratic idea, a governing principle, the role guilds and unions had, most-scientific management, a fantasy of the good old days, workers could work their way up, showing the corruption, the truck driver, Sam stole his book, rejects the last meal, the diner, hops the fence, guy says fuck off, mouth watering, pride prevented it, help me cheat my union and the rules of the road, two drivers alternating, the first time that happens, other cheating earlier in the book, the same thing happens, below decks, known but allowed to happen, the stills, interesting relevant, the Baltimore harbour ship crash, the company has been cracking down on whistleblowers, drinking on duty, things are not being maintained, maintenance issues, report whistleblowing through the company, free ride plus meals, the teamsters union, aboard ship, the canny one, bribe your way through everything, how did you even learn all this, why were you rejected from the astrogator’s guild, if I ever become captain, I’m going to use that to change things in the guild, we can reform this, this whole society is corrupt, his inheritance is stolen, your half mom, pay his fines, his attitude towards the American project, when I was a navy man…, nod and wink, get your graft, an undercurrent, the flex you need to make any kind of institution work, a little bit of graft, slight tweaks,nothing can be perfect, benefits to this system, the economy seems to be going, alternative, the corruption goes all the way down, Max’s dad’s farm, 400 years, not allowed to sell it, the Agricultural Land Reserve, engaging with the idea earth is going to run out of places to grow food, making food scenes work, the big breakfast, huge American breakfast with a big stack of pancakes, the diner, bring me an egg, nail it to the wall, on the ship as well, kidnapped with the girl, high tea, a really good writer, its the same formula every time, circumstances, distinct enough, young male characters, pretty terrific, distinctive characteristics, Luke Burrage’s The Science Fiction Book Review Podcast, Moby-Dick, what the book is saying, I’m Ishmael, riding over his shoulder, no personality, twins, transgender is in here again!, more than once in more than one way, spider puppy, I’m a boy, I’m a girl, misgendered, you bring out the mother in me, very refreshing, his prudishness is non-existence, all sex all the time, not being worried as being perceived as gay, freedom to tell stories, Butler, Missouri, guys who grey up on farms, time around animals, sidemeat, cook the eggs, he’s bringing real life experience, theoretical and very grokkable future vision, very famous science fiction writer, a solid solid book, lie and cheat, come clean, moralism, make sure you talk to your parents first before going to the moon, role models, his uncle is his role model, interacting with adults that are not your parents, the maturation process, you see the themes get more heavy, more adult, adults facing adult issues, slavery, a little sister, an inversion of Podkayne, the most popular of all of the YA, dad was an English teacher, the one he chose for his students, the babiest, Tunnel In The Sky is fairly adult, sex in there, hidden in the house on the honeymoon night, a boyfriend back home, a class dynamic, hypercompetent for a girl, 3D chess, pretending to be dumb, characterizing girls, the girl is more interesting, our viewpoint into this world, super-readable, Glory Road, Charlie And The Chocolate Factory, the mother thing, a little bit of Lovecraft in there, the Yest of the YAs, Rocket Ship Galileo, boys adventure, 1958, building spacesuits then, excited about building spacesuits, abducted by aliens, accessible Heinlein, the earth setting: terrific, the quasi-dystopia happening outside of the farm, the tunnel technology, slidewalks are mentioned, talks to a cop, runs into an alien or two, refrigerator, the electric stove is broken, wood shavings for tinder, a lot of the country didn’t have electricity, a woodstove is more work, plan your meals out a lot more, not having the dinner ready, sleeping around, a foreign unicycle in the driveway, self-stabilizing unicycles, 60kph, how did he carry that woman home, a second seat?, really great writer, the starship works great, matter converters, just does enough work, decks, gravity changes, turn off the gravity, Haven?, Charity?, the planet with the centaurs, we haven’t seen centaurs before, the Venusian fauns, panisci, elections, a marriage by the mayor, bio-tech, a trial, a judge, an old centaur, use an electrical eel on him, Max is trying to learn the language, being tied up outside with Elly a lot, a thread there, more about a first contact situation, the bad astrogator guy disposed of the note, the rebellion on the ship, Orphans Of The Sky, another repeated plot point, the mutiny, the same tricks, good revolution, overthrowing a corrupt government, Heinlein had a twin brother born in the UK, when they meet they’ll disagree about the same things, he believes in the American project, we need to be circumspect, justifying the house of lords, strawmans, his solution to problems, the stepstep dad is a nogoodnik, a layabout, a bad version of Sam, the astrogator who is bad at his job, missed the captain’s error, destroys the documents, an Iago for our hero, never fully grokked by Heinlein, never goes that extra step, allows them to be bad, why did Max’s father choose this woman as a wife?, Farmer in the sky, the father marries a wife, a new sister, son, something from Heinlein’s own experience?, a lot of feelings in there, let’s go join the navy, at a boarding school he gives up his horse?, Between Planets, has to give up a lot of stuff, drawing from his own life, having a pet that you can love a lot that you could talk to, back to back, huge American breakfast, gotta save Lummox, at the diner, bring me an egg, nail it to the wall, make him captain, high tea, toast, a really good writer, it’s the same formula every time, changes the circumstances slightly, young male characters, the first six are rough, young men are not that interesting, Luke Burrage’s Science Fiction Book Review Podcast, Moby-Dick, I’m Ishmael, has no personality, the themes, twins, transgender is in here again, more than once in more than one way, the spider puppy, I’m a girl or I’m a boy, the talking pet, Willis, Lummox, misgendered, you bring out the mother in me, twice, separate scenes, prudishness, propriety, the editors holding him back, all sex all the time, not be worried about being perceived as gay, really interesting, allows a lot of freedom to tell stories, some issue with families, Butler, Missouri, grew up or are on farms, sidemeat, could be pig, sidemeat fat to cook the eggs in, real-life experience, grokkable future vision, very famous science fiction writer for a good fuckin reason, lie and cheat, maybe I need to come clean, moralism, Rocket Ship Galileo, make sure you talk to your parents about going to the moon, role models, interacting with adults who aren’t your parents, interacting with adults as equals, you would see the themes get more heavy, more adult, adults facing adult issues, Citizen Of The Galaxy, Have Space Suit, Will Travel, an inversion of Podkayne, dad was an English teacher, the one he chose for his students, the babiest, Tunnel In The Sky is fairly adult, sex in there, honeymoon night, a cute shipboard romance with Eldreth, a class dynamic, hypercompetent for a girl, pretending to be dumb, characterizing girls, the girl is more interesting, winning a contest, Glory Road, Charlie And The Chocolate Factory, an adult who is acting childish, the mother thing, a little bit of Lovecraft in there, the Y-est of the YAs, boys adventure, boys and girls can read it, building spacesuits then, the middle 60s, everybody is going to be excited about building spacesuits, accessible Heinlein, quasi-dystopia outside of the farm, the tunnel technology, slidewalks, stuck on the farm, checking out books from the library, a refrigerator, the electric stove is broken, wood shavings for tinder, a lot of the country didn’t have electricity, more work than turning that knob, not having had the dinner ready, gone for the night, sleepin around, he’s got a unicycle, unicycles are huge now (self stabilized unicycle), the laws don’t know what to do with them, stepstep-dad’s unicycle, spinning up visions of it, doesn’t need to wholly explain every piece of tech, matter converts, decks, gravity is working, turn of the gravity, Haven?, Charity?, Charity maybe, two legged fauns, Venusian panisci, Tunnel In The Sky, they find houses, elections, a marriage by the mayor, associated beings, bio tech, a trial, a judge, an old centaur, an electrical eel, a whole other book about that, Max is trying to learn the language, being tied up with Elly a lot, they play chess, could have gone off in another direction, put in a cage, the note is not found on him, disposed of the note, the rebellion on the ship, another repeat plot point, Red Planet has a little bit of that, good revolutions, mutiny, challenging the leadership on the ship, Heinlein’s twin brother born in the UK, interested in the same things, the American project, the British Heinlein would end up justifying the House of Lords, strawmans, set her cap for him, good cook, property, a bad version of Sam, an Iago for our hero, how did they get to be like that, why did Max’s father choose this woman, Farmer In The Sky, a lot of feelings in there, let’s go joining the navy, at a boarding school and he gives up his horse, Between Planets, drawing from his own life over and over again, a pet you can love and you can talk to, transgenderism, big breakfasts, parents losing a wife, incest was left out, later books, certain themes, Heinlein doing Heinlein, a great listen, the guild thing, science fiction stories with unions, Gentlemen Be Seated, positive portrayals of unions in science fiction, the fat union guy has to sit on his ass, a good union man, I’m getting paid to be here, a positive portrayal, a sense of government, some sort of agricultural land reserve, space tourism, farm animals, workers, six females on the ship, just the passengers, well aged, past point of normal fertility, the annoying passenger, in Red Planet too, being uncharitable, the authority of the captain and the rules, that Lester Del Rey boo, Badge Of Infamy, in our world, corporations and stockholder, United Fruit sends the Marines to Guatemala, the President signs off on it, American people aren’t doing that consciously, explanations come after, Heinlein’s really awesome, how to operate within the system, rebellions there, disentangle the premises from Campbell, with The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress, its a prison, expand, as a juvenile, a transition out of that, Friday, the last great book?, harks bad to this era, not fully human, escape to the stars, all the problems that are going on post-break up of the United States, Heinlein’s my guy, I Will Fear No Evil, am I transgender?, what would it be like, am I doing a good job, what makes me not attracted to men?, rape, as you know we both being women, the big muscles that men do, there isn’t a mistake in it, these keep getting better, kind of amazing, is the peak?, becoming a better writer, more complex, of the official juveniles, which is the best?, Star Beast or Time For The Stars, a tier list, not one boy, Hazel steals the show, more comedic too, playful, the courtroom scene, a bad movie where everyone cheers at the end, a space opera about space opera writers, when he dumps the parent characters, on his own, Kim by Rudyard Kipling, Starship Troopers is a poem, M.I., book recommendations, Skybeasts, engage with the centaurs, wanting to play with the babies, almost a shame, alien ecosystem, that lost in the woods subplot, is he just being lazy, what makes you a hero is saving people rather than killing people, bad writers, put a girl on the tracks, kill the villain who put the lady on the tracks, very moralistic, it’s about saving people, it’s about being truthful, a very boyscouty guy, shoe a horse, cook a meal, bring a woman’s pregnancy out into the world, conn a ship, combining the math is important, Jesse, is there a kid who doesn’t have to study math, one likes history, math is true and it helps you, the big gimme, Max Jones has an eidetic memory, its a trick, smart boy, doesn’t act arrogantly because of it, the doctor, you better act morally because you need to sleep at night, remembering details, acted badly, lied hurt people, being a psychologist, shame a twinge, a physical injury, not being cruel, cruel and mean, characters say things, Eldreth, even a girl like Eldreth, she’s dirty, he’s stinky, not being the prettiest but having a good brain, a cruel remark, engage with this at the Bifrost Lounge, Asgard, being cruel to people, being perceived as cruel, our Max character confesses at some point, Marilu Henner, I ordered the fish, how memories are formed, a system of forgetting that’s built in, a genetically useful thing, some people have that turned off, sitting under the stars looking up at space, he could navigate them home, get them out of the woods, he takes the time to look at the stars, this is actually a curse, allows him to become the captain of the ship, a more common human, he’s wrong about stuff, how does he solve the space problem, same way as in Gentleman Be Seated, sometimes you just have to sit around, he’s a wise man, they’re lying to themselves somehow, this is a man who taught Jesse a lot of stuff, a bunch of other things, setting artillery cannon calculations as your main thing, never was disabused of that, we have engineers, way too much math to students, most of us don’t actual need it, you need to learn Icelandic, a fine language, uncharitable for math, malthusian stuff, kind of implied, for calories, the torch ships, jump gates, weird FTL, very blinkered on where Earth can go, can’t imagine fertilizer, I use the government fertilizers, this land is played out, Heinlein’s using that to bootstrap the excuse, he likes to go to space, a lot of Earth stuff, science fiction set on earth vs. science fiction set on alien planets, basically Mars, there’s nothing there, it aint gonna happen, not with the tech we have, he can’t describe a whole ecosystem, floaters, subhumans, almost Jonathan Swift, expressionless faces, a solution or a plan, rooting for the centaurs, a settler colonial spaceship, you killed one of ours?, very in the news again, kidnapped, amazingly horrific videos, officially censored on most things, tiktok and twitter, even tiktok is censoring, not a foot stepped wrong, he’s our vehicle to get to where we need to go, could have worked harder on that, more than just lets again be lost in the woods, lost twice, a little subplot, after a certain point in the book its almost all dialogue, a lot of writers, the shape of a guy’s mustache, he has a cap, changes his shirt, rumpled looking, stuff that isn’t description of the colour of the deck plates, Heinlein just gets to it, 7 hours, Paul’s been nominated for a Hugo again, Hugo Nominees, the new novel, Ancillary Justice, alternate pronouns, an AI that had its consciousness downloaded into a robot, tea-ceremonies and head kicking, a big long series that shouldn’t exist, really good and nice and short, Ann Leckie, that premise from 11 years ago, 409 pages, double the length of this and the first in a series, that’s something else, it is set in space, some science fiction ideas, it has something to do with what you’re reading the books for, escape or uplift, in the fifties it was the pulps, cheap paperback novels, for better or for worse, there are good series, 200 pages, don’t describe the deckplates, what is the haircolour Ishmael, people who are interesting, a Stephen King guy, physical appearance, repetition, in Connie Willis as well, getting to the thing and getting out, studying ecology that’s Dune, this is something else, we can be done with stuff, get someone else’s take, complaining about a book series, Heinlein’s awesome, even when you’re disagreeing with him, spending the whole book joining the truck driver’s union, a little lesson in physics, the pressure on the metal roads, trucks vs. trains, Evan’s readthrough of Heinlein, lost in space, you’re not supposed to read this book back to back, go crazy with Elmore Leonard, eventually they get bad, big but under control, a lot of sex stuff, implied, a pretty solid first person narration story, a retelling, Dave (1993), Moon Over Parador (1988), House Of Cards, Double Star is barely science fiction, hypnosis, a down and out actor, a good actor, is there a difference between me and the guy I’m acting as, The Prince And The Pauper, swap clothes, Richard Dreyfus, Caviar Of His Excellency by Charles G. Booth, fictional south American president, dies of a heart attack, Sammy Davis, Jr., we get to see our Martians and water brothers, same Martians, a princess of Mars, a princess in this book, a magnate, her boyfriend, upperclass twit names, fun fun book, Evan shows up sometimes, gonna have Will, Easter, last minute facebook memes about Jesus, a day of transgender awareness, trynna get votes, Easter something, March 31, 2024, more woke holidays, eliminate the boring holidays, thanksgiving, created by the people, Halloween, opening day for baseball should be a holiday, Taiwan baseball, colonized by the Japanese, Sun Yat-sen, Game Of Rat And Dragon by Cordwainer Smith, his godfather, kinda like Tolkien, same thing but for space, all the other wars he was involved in, not everybody is going to get this, a Chinese expert, pre-CIA CIA guys, on team China during WWII, there’s a really good documentary Cordwainer Smith, a Chinese name, largely about cats, H.P. Lovecraft, Philip K. Dick, humans fighting dragons in space with the assistance of the partners, they like fish, time spent talking about psychology of cats, Rediscovery: The Lives Of Cordwainer Smith, the national father, revere him, Taiwan has so been Taiwanized, 10/10, the 1911 revolution, 113, a lot of them aren’t aware of that, very science fictional, the statues everywhere, the propaganda letter bombs, to surrender properly, the tragedy of communist victory in the civil war, a guy who is deeply in love with China, uses his powers for evil, uses his powers to spin up stories for himself, stories about empathy, the dragon and the rat, what the dragons look like Chinese animals, very different, creatures of water, long and sinuous, not hoarders who need to be slain, harbingers of bad luck, before famines, space is painful, who come out of space, people I helped crush, really likes Beowulf, focus on that, meatgrinding, reduce this to US imperialism, British war, the China lobby, inform government policy, China was still struggling against imperialism, Henry Luce, raise money from the foreign exclaves, free China from western imperialism, so affectionate, wife was a Christian, soft power, American foreign policy towards China, you do your part, can’t be a good thing, why people write fiction is weird, art, therapy, money, Heinlein was good at it, it was fun for him, a failure at everything else, James Tiptree, Jr., not interested in having kids, not interested in going to conventions, intellectual exercise, using pseudonyms, don’t want to be in the limelight, not doing it because you’re trying to get rich, a hobby, they’re weirdos, how people’s brains work, some sort of deficit, they want to be famous, a little power fantasy, getting a job sucks, who makes it writing, very few, they’re delusional, small business, you give yourself a job you’re your own boss, we’re turning off in store business, that’ll kill it, working for someone else, bad ideas thrust upon you, make work, busy work, writing is a way to do that, escape an identity of being a job you don’t like, a big theme in The Sopranos, they’re having fun stealing things, crass miserable fucks, we enjoy their misery, the framing being about therapy, exposition, ultimately it is almost dropped, there for exposition, the backstory, panic attacks, the Game Of Thrones moments, throwing everybody under the bus, what makes it interesting, watching the decline of this lifestyle, cultures get eradicated, relentless narrative of decline, that incident with the bridge collapse, so on point, may take up to 10 years to rebuild this bridge, it was built in 5, how fast would China have a bridge up?, extracting value, the puppet strings, milk it properly, the competent government, when the government could actually do something, they did that war so efficiently, how many tanks were built, we’re running out of shells to give to Ukraine, we can’t do two genocides at once, the of pilots vs. the number of aircraft, they take 20 years to develop, the transfer of hardware manufacturing of tanks, 1950s cars, civilian aircraft, make civilian production, needs for housing, we can have a boom, for a long time, something goes wrong, do stuff without having to have a war, let’s do hospitals, how is this possible, not having graft being the number one thing they do, what the progress is on the Francis Scott Key Bridge [repair set to begin 2025], economic impact, a thicker base, more and more misallocated, investing way to much in housing, foreign investment housing problems, the houses empty in China, better that than tanks and bombs, when they get to 30 aircraft carriers, a land invasion of Canada, probably have some ideas, same with the regular federal government, we did really good on this, Heinlein influence, fleeing to space with your physics skills, even if a bad book.
Posted by Jesse Willis
Reading, Short And Deep #226